Fish and Meat Part II

In general if an ounce of non kosher food becomes absorbed in sixty ounces of kosher food we assume that the entire mixture is kosher. We require sixty times the forbidden food to nullify it because the taste of the forbidden food is not discernible when mixed with sixty times its volume. Although forbidden foods may become nullified in sixty times their volume, one may not initially nullify a forbidden food by adding more permitted food. This principle is known as "ein mivatlin issur lechatchila".
 
Can we apply this rule to foods which are prohibited for sakana, danger, also?
 
a. The Taz writes that dangerous foods cannot become nullified in sixty times their volume. The logic for this view is that nullification only works to neutralize taste but does nothing to mitigate potential danger in food. Furthermore, Chazal teach us that chamira sakanta m'issura (we must treat dangerous foods with more caution than we treat halachically prohibited foods).
 
b. The Shach disagrees with the Taz. The Shach argues that chamira sakanta m'issura is a principle that is limited to a case of doubt, but would not extend to the laws of bittul. Pitchei Teshuvah points out that according to the Chatam Sofer fish and meat may have lost its status as a dangerous food (because modern medicine does not recognize any problem with it) and may now have the status of forbidden food (because the rabbis decreed not to mix the two). As such the rules governing fish and meat should certainly be the same as the rules governing other prohibited foods, and should therefore become nullified in sixty times their volume. 
 
One very common practical application of the above dispute is the issue of Worcestershire Sauce, which is a steak sauce with fish ingredients. Lea & Perrin's Worcestershire Sauce, which is certified by the OU, has the following ingredient list:
INGREDIENTS:  Prepared From All Natural Ingredients: Water, Vinegar, Molasses, High Fructose Corn Syrup, Anchovies, Hydrogarlic, Clove, Chili Peppers, Natural Flavorings And Shallots.
 
Rav Eitan Schnall (born and raised in West Hempstead) in a shiur on this issue qouted Rav Schechter, who guides the policies of the OU, ruled that the OU should label any sauce that contains more than 1.67% (1/60th) fish with an OU Fish to indicate that it should not be eaten with meat. If, however, the sauce is composed of less than 1.67% fish no labeling is required. Rav Schechter ruled leniently in this issue due to a safek sefika. First, perhaps the Magen Avraham (who we mentioned last week) who says the whole issue of fish and meat doesn't apply anymore is correct, and even if the prohibition still applies perhaps the Shach is right that foods prohibited on account of danger may be nullified.In regards to Lea& Perrin's sauce, there is more than 1/67% anchovie and thus bears an OU- F.

Editors' note: Star-K agrees with the OU ruling on this issue. However, the OK has a policy of putting OK-F even if less than 1/60th, for those that want to be machmir, and this can be seen on Tropicana with Omega-3.

Fish and Meat

Dear Halachaboy,
 
Q : I know there is a prohibition of eating fish and meat. What exactly are the parameters of this prohibition and how far does it extend? For example, can I broil a salmon and steak in the same oven if both are uncovered but not touching?
 
A: I love getting questions, they keep me going through these dark days of winter (please keep the coming at thehalachaboy@gmail.com ).
 
We all know that Torah frowns on things that are hazardous to you health (Vnishmartim Moad L'Nofshosechem- Hashem exhorts us to be exceedingly careful with our souls and bodies). This prohibition extends to anything that is potentially hazardous. I have heard Rav Willig, from YU, say that one who skis or plays hockey might be violating this prohibition. Further, everyone agrees that smoking cigarettes is a clear violation of this prohibition.
 
The Gemara in Pesachim says that while the Torah does not forbid eating fish and meat together, it is still forbidden because it will lead to Tzaaras and other ailments. Further the Shulchan Aruch rules that while now-a-days one may drink from a glass that was left uncovered overnight (even though it was forbidden in the times of the Gemara for perhaps snakes injected venom into the drink), one is still forbidden to eat fish and meat.
 
We can understand this Shulchan Aruch by assuming that whenever the Gemara made a health decree, the decree is valid only as long as the hazard exists. So while we don't have snakes anymore, there are still many food related ailments that we need to worry about.  To be intellectually honest there are those that allow eating fish and meat, even together, but the general consensus is not like them and we try to avoid it.
 
Do we extend the prohibition even to cooking them together?
The issue here is that the foods are never coming into contact; it is just their reich (smell/ aroma/ steam) that might be imparted into one another.
There are three main opinions to this:
 
1. Opinion of Rav Moshe Isserlis. The Rema (Yoreh Deah 116:2) writes that lechatchila one must be careful not to roast meat and fish together in the same oven. However, ex post facto, one who cooked fish and meat together in a single oven may eat the fish and the meat. Aruch Hashulchan (Yoreh Deah 116:10 strongly
supports the view of the Rema stating that in spite of all of the dissenting opinions we need only concern ourselves with the words of the Rema.
 
2. Opinion of Maharshal. The Shach (ibid. 1) cites the opinion of the Maharshal  that one may even cook meat and fish lechatchila simultaneously in the same oven. He opines that even those who believe that reicha is significant would agree that this is only true regarding forbidden foods and is not true regarding dangerous foods.
 
3. Opinion of Be'er Sheva. The Shach (ibid.) cites the opinion of the Be'er Sheva that although we would generally permit reicha ex post facto, since we are stricter with danger than with forbidden foods (chamira sakanta m'issura) we would not even allow one to eat meat that has already been cooked with fish in.
 
As always ask you Rav if this situation arises, but remember you are playing with real danger, not just G-d's hibby jibbies!
 
If anyone can explain to me why we are stricter with dangerous foods than with forbidden foods (chamira sakanta m'issura) I would love to hear. I mean, logically, I would think eating something naturally dangerous is less bad in G-d's eyes than eating something he declared forbidden.
 
(taken from a shiur from Rav Aryeh Leibowitz, a Rav in North Woodmere)
 
HALACHABOY JOKE:
Teacher: Yisroel Pinchas, use the word 'officiate' in a sentence.
Yisroel Pinchas: A man got sick from officiate.!!!
 
Next we will hopefully discuss Worcestershire Sauce (which apparently is a steak sauce made with fish).